Thorp Letters
Review September 2008 of Correspondence in 1963-1964 between Wesley Genealogist Mr Arthur Samuel Thorp and Dr Charles Herbert Wesley
Mr Thorp was a member of the London Genealogists Society concerned with the work of the Wesley Historical Society on ancestry of Epworth and Australian branches of the old Westley-Wesley family lineage. He wrote from his home Newstead at 9 Grenfell Road, Beaconsfield in Buckinghamshire, to Dr Wesley of 20 Salisbury Road, Rose Bay in Sydney NSW, discussing his findings and contentious points of interest.
Dr Wesley’s son, Mr Charles Peter Wesley of Allambie Heights in Sydney, has recently recovered their respective letters and notes, which are here summarised with comments as to our most recently generated genealogical data compiled in our Wesley, Westley, Epworth and Wellesley computerised files, developed from copy notes of Mr Thorp to the writer in July-August of 1963. Benefiting from various Internet sources, we now report our latest findings as follows.
1. Opening letter 10 July 1963 where Mr Thorp explains his wife Marjorie Lucy Wesley is a 2nd great-granddaughter of Charles Wesley (1707-1788) brother of John founder of Methodism, also his search for Charles’ great-grandson Samuel Annesley Wesley (1837-1925) believed to have migrated to Australia having 5 sons and a daughter, also with Samuel’s brother William Ken Wesley (1845-1879) and another relative Francis Wesley who died in 1854 married to Elizabeth Bamfield. We fail to find these persons recorded in Australia but did find a John Annesley Wesley, see item 3 next, also Westley Hall.doc.
2. Letter of 3 August 1963 Charles Peter Wesley to his father Dr Charles Herbert Wesley with information from a Mr Dibley on Dibley’s grandfather, Andrew Wesley, a mining engineer, who migrated to Emmaville NSW where he engaged in mining tin following its discovery in 1872 at Vegetable Creek (Emmaville).
We find Mr A C Dibley’s father William Alfred Dibley (1881-1949) married about 1907 Eva Myrtle Wesley born 1883 at Glen Innes NSW, 2nd daughter of Andrew Stevens Wesley and Alvina Isabella Scherf who married 1880 at Emmaville NSW and died 30 May 1935 in Sydney. Andrew was born 3 December 1855 at Sancred in Cornwall, 3rd son of William Wesley (1821-1863) and Elizabeth Ann Stevens of St Just-in-Penwith, Cornwall UK. Andrew had a brother in Sydney, Charles Wesley (1854-1918) who twice married (sisters) from Penzance in Cornwall, 1881 Honor White in Sydney and 1890 Mary White at Balmain. St Just and Penzance were among Cornish tin mining areas.
Honor White bore Andrew four daughters and two sons at Sydney - Herbert Charles Wesley in 1882 who died 1975 at Dee Why and William Herbert Wesley in 1884 also died 1885 at Dee Why. Mary White bore Andrew a daughter and two sons at Parramatta, Reginald John Wesley born 1891 died 1916 and Andrew Augustus Wesley born 1896 at Ryde died 1975 at Pendle Hill. Andrew Stevens Wesley and Alvina’s 2nd son Charles Henry Wesley was buried on 13 February 1931 aged 34 years in Boggabri General Cemetery NSW, attesting Mr Dibley’s belief that the family of Andrew Stevens Wesley lived lately at Boggabri, though records show he died in Sydney.
3. Dr C H Wesley on 9 November 1963 noted his receipt of a letter that he a few days earlier forwarded to Mr Thorp from John Annesley Wesley of 89 Dunalban Avenue, Woy-Woy NSW, as having a brother George Charles Wesley, only sons of Thomas who died 1929 and whose father (their grandfather) had a hotel in Rockhampton, Queensland; that they lived in Rowntree Street, Balmain, Sydney, when John Annesley Wesley, then a patient of Dr Wesley in 1963 was aged 40 plus years. See: Westley Hall.doc.
We found in electoral roll entries for 1930 Thomas Patrick Wesley and John Annesley Wesley (seaman) with Rosalie Dorothea Wesley at 187 Rowntree Street, Balmain, and for 1936 adding Mary Josephine Wesley, but find nothing on searching for George Charles, possibly another seaman. Dr Wesley notes Thomas stated he was a nephew to the family of Wesley Hall associated with Mount Morgan, southwards of Rockhampton, however searches for Hall-Wesley ancestral links so far proved negative.
[James Wesley Hall was the initial manager among his highly successful and rich half-brothers Thomas Skarrett and Walter Russell Hall that syndicated the Mount Morgan Gold Mining Company Ltd from 1889 south of Rockhampton. James was born on 21 February 1839 at Kington in Herefordshire, migrated to Sydney in 1852 with his parents (founders of Walter and Eliza Hall Institute of Medical Research) residing at Toorak in Melbourne and Potts Point in Sydney. He was educated at Sydney University, married Mary Frederica Dora Dempster of Williamstown VIC in 1889 and died 7 January 1901.]
So far it appears, three separate Wesley lineages coincide about Glen Innes in NSW (a) that of Charles and Andrew Stevens Wesley migrants from St Just-in-Penwith in Cornwall who settled at Emmaville (b) that of John Annesley Wesley son of Thomas related to Wesley Hall of Mount Morgan and Boggabri, that migrated from Kington in Herefordshire and (c) of William Wesley from Clavleton in Cambridgeshire who settled about Glen Innes, ancestor of Michael Peter Wesley of Taree NSW son of James Archibald ‘Jim’ Wesley of Laurieton NSW.
Michael and Jim supplied their family history linked with that of a cousin Walter ‘Wally’ Wesley of Guyra near Glen Innes, lately Gloucester NSW, some of whom we have traced in 1930 electoral rolls at Bald Blair and Tubbamurra, about Glen Innes and Guyra. They are clearly separate from descendants of John Wesley born 1822 at Limerick in Ireland, who migrated in 1851 to Sydney, married Ellen Ryan in 1857, settled a Talbragar River selection at Uarbry near Cassilis NSW about 1862 and died in 1894 at Gulgong.
John Wesley and Ellen Ryan had a son William Thomas Wesley (1862-1956) born at Lawson’s Creek, Mudgee, of whom their son Tom (1898-1956) has a large family including our correspondent Bernard ‘Barney’ Wesley at Coolah NSW, Andrew (born 1905) and Vincent (born 1910). Thomas Wesley born 1812 at Limerick (a 1st cousin to John) married at Limerick in 1832 Bridget Hall, also settled the Talbragar River selection at Uarbry, but died in 1879 at Coonabarabran NSW. Thomas’ great-grandson Stan Wesley is our correspondent at Turramurra in Sydney NSW, with family information on his cousins domiciled in the 1960s about Orange and Candelo NSW.
4. Mr Thorp’s letter of 9 August 1963 to Dr Wesley, in which Thorp refers to his contact in Michigan USA who understood they descend of Matthew Wesley, effectively Matthew Westley (1661-1737) apothecary of London, antecedent to (Dr Wesley’s 3rd great-grandfather) Joseph Westley (son of Richard) born 1714 Birmingham married Martha Richards in 1751 in St Martin’s Church at Birmingham. We at this point consider needs for genealogical research over Richard’s link to Matthew. Joseph’s descent from Richard and hence Matthew is discussed separately - Dr Wesley’s grand-uncle John Wesley from Birmingham was from 1856 until death 1901 a Methodist preacher at Detroit and Galien in Michigan.
5. Mr Thorp’s letter of 26 November 1963 to Dr Wesley, mentioning his skeleton plan of the Somerset and Irish branches in the Wesley family tree, also his find of the marriage certificate for Dr Wesley’s grand-uncle John Wesley, Methodist preacher, to Susanna Crowley at Birmingham; Dr Wesley’s father is Rev Charles Wesley (1859-1923) born at Rowley Regis in Birmingham, who migrated in 1883 to Queensland whereupon he was ordained in the Primitive Methodist Ministry, married Mary Cormack in 1889 and died at Cowra NSW after 44 years of ministry throughout Queensland and NSW.
6. Letter of 5 December 1963 to Dr Wesley from Mr Thorp mentioning Charles Kenneth Wesley whose father, a relative of aforesaid Rev John Wesley, who once lived at Adrian in Michigan (west of Detroit) but retired to Florida USA. We have on file descendants of Charles Kenneth Wesley.
7. Further letter of 4 January 1964 to Dr Wesley from Mr Thorp regarding his relative Samuel Annesley Wesley born 1837 said to have migrated to Australia. However, we cannot find traces of Samuel.
8. Mr Thorp’s letter of 17 February 1964 to Dr Wesley, clarifying that Charles Kenneth Wesley’s grandfather Joseph followed (his brother) Rev John Wesley’s journey abroad in 1856 and soon after met with him in Adrian, Michigan.
9. Mr Thorp’s letter of 26 March 1964 confirming marital details from Charles Kenneth Wesley on his father Joseph, whereby he is 2nd cousin to Peter’s father Dr C H Wesley. Thorp speculated upon the Samuel Wesley of Epworth’s ancestral link to Dr Wesley.
10. Letter from Mr Thorp to Dr Wesley on 6 April 1964 briefly mentioning Dr Wesley’s cousin Miss Gwen B Wesley of Ontario in Canada had replied to Thorp’s letter. Gwen evidently descends from John or Joseph Wesley of Michigan.
Much recent information supplementing Mr Thorp’s investigation of the ‘Epworth’ line of Wesleys is readily available on the Internet, whereas we wish to here focus on lineage of New South Wales families Wesley, earlier Westley. We almost invariably find the genealogy of Wesley was collectively Westley until the 19th century, while some remain Westley, born of the 15th century.
Specifically, ancestors at Birmingham of my colleague Charles Peter (‘Peter’) Wesley changed their surname from Westley in about 1815. My ancestry Westley, from about Buckingham and Northampton, which became Wesley from about 1850, seems to connect to that of the Westleys in South Australia.
However, the ‘Epworth’ Wesleys, children of Samuel Westley (birth 1662 Whitchurch in Dorset, death 1735 Epworth, Axholme in Humberside) born from 1690 to 1709 are first to appear baptised Wesley, whereas Samuel’s 3rd great-grandson Timothy Bartholomew Westley (birth 1811 Seaton and Beer in Devon death 1869 Ramsgate in Kent, fisherman) retained the familiar‘t’ inherited in the 15th century, though there are exceptions found in the Wellesley line, as follow. Timothy named his firstborn Walter Alexander Wesley in 1835.
The surname Westley was first used by Sir Arthur Westley 4th baron Norragh who was born 1416-1426 at (Wells-way, Welswe) Wesley Manor in Somerset, son of Gerald de Wellesley 3rd baron Norragh and Margaret Ogilvy daughter of Sir Thomas Ogilvy. Sir Arthur has a brother Walter de Wellesley, while Sir Arthur and Margaret have sons John the Rector at Langton in Dorset, Richard (married Kate Wellesley of Dangan Castle in County Meath, Ireland) and Humphrey Westley, who married a daughter of Hubert Wesley of Westley Hall UK - bearing no relation to James Wesley Hall of Mount Morgan in Queensland, whose brother Thomas Skarratt Hall acquired Weeting Hall at Weeting in Norfolk, after he made a fortune from their Australian gold mines!
Guy Wesley
30 September 2008
Faxed to Charles Peter Wesley
Mr Thorp was a member of the London Genealogists Society concerned with the work of the Wesley Historical Society on ancestry of Epworth and Australian branches of the old Westley-Wesley family lineage. He wrote from his home Newstead at 9 Grenfell Road, Beaconsfield in Buckinghamshire, to Dr Wesley of 20 Salisbury Road, Rose Bay in Sydney NSW, discussing his findings and contentious points of interest.
Dr Wesley’s son, Mr Charles Peter Wesley of Allambie Heights in Sydney, has recently recovered their respective letters and notes, which are here summarised with comments as to our most recently generated genealogical data compiled in our Wesley, Westley, Epworth and Wellesley computerised files, developed from copy notes of Mr Thorp to the writer in July-August of 1963. Benefiting from various Internet sources, we now report our latest findings as follows.
1. Opening letter 10 July 1963 where Mr Thorp explains his wife Marjorie Lucy Wesley is a 2nd great-granddaughter of Charles Wesley (1707-1788) brother of John founder of Methodism, also his search for Charles’ great-grandson Samuel Annesley Wesley (1837-1925) believed to have migrated to Australia having 5 sons and a daughter, also with Samuel’s brother William Ken Wesley (1845-1879) and another relative Francis Wesley who died in 1854 married to Elizabeth Bamfield. We fail to find these persons recorded in Australia but did find a John Annesley Wesley, see item 3 next, also Westley Hall.doc.
2. Letter of 3 August 1963 Charles Peter Wesley to his father Dr Charles Herbert Wesley with information from a Mr Dibley on Dibley’s grandfather, Andrew Wesley, a mining engineer, who migrated to Emmaville NSW where he engaged in mining tin following its discovery in 1872 at Vegetable Creek (Emmaville).
We find Mr A C Dibley’s father William Alfred Dibley (1881-1949) married about 1907 Eva Myrtle Wesley born 1883 at Glen Innes NSW, 2nd daughter of Andrew Stevens Wesley and Alvina Isabella Scherf who married 1880 at Emmaville NSW and died 30 May 1935 in Sydney. Andrew was born 3 December 1855 at Sancred in Cornwall, 3rd son of William Wesley (1821-1863) and Elizabeth Ann Stevens of St Just-in-Penwith, Cornwall UK. Andrew had a brother in Sydney, Charles Wesley (1854-1918) who twice married (sisters) from Penzance in Cornwall, 1881 Honor White in Sydney and 1890 Mary White at Balmain. St Just and Penzance were among Cornish tin mining areas.
Honor White bore Andrew four daughters and two sons at Sydney - Herbert Charles Wesley in 1882 who died 1975 at Dee Why and William Herbert Wesley in 1884 also died 1885 at Dee Why. Mary White bore Andrew a daughter and two sons at Parramatta, Reginald John Wesley born 1891 died 1916 and Andrew Augustus Wesley born 1896 at Ryde died 1975 at Pendle Hill. Andrew Stevens Wesley and Alvina’s 2nd son Charles Henry Wesley was buried on 13 February 1931 aged 34 years in Boggabri General Cemetery NSW, attesting Mr Dibley’s belief that the family of Andrew Stevens Wesley lived lately at Boggabri, though records show he died in Sydney.
3. Dr C H Wesley on 9 November 1963 noted his receipt of a letter that he a few days earlier forwarded to Mr Thorp from John Annesley Wesley of 89 Dunalban Avenue, Woy-Woy NSW, as having a brother George Charles Wesley, only sons of Thomas who died 1929 and whose father (their grandfather) had a hotel in Rockhampton, Queensland; that they lived in Rowntree Street, Balmain, Sydney, when John Annesley Wesley, then a patient of Dr Wesley in 1963 was aged 40 plus years. See: Westley Hall.doc.
We found in electoral roll entries for 1930 Thomas Patrick Wesley and John Annesley Wesley (seaman) with Rosalie Dorothea Wesley at 187 Rowntree Street, Balmain, and for 1936 adding Mary Josephine Wesley, but find nothing on searching for George Charles, possibly another seaman. Dr Wesley notes Thomas stated he was a nephew to the family of Wesley Hall associated with Mount Morgan, southwards of Rockhampton, however searches for Hall-Wesley ancestral links so far proved negative.
[James Wesley Hall was the initial manager among his highly successful and rich half-brothers Thomas Skarrett and Walter Russell Hall that syndicated the Mount Morgan Gold Mining Company Ltd from 1889 south of Rockhampton. James was born on 21 February 1839 at Kington in Herefordshire, migrated to Sydney in 1852 with his parents (founders of Walter and Eliza Hall Institute of Medical Research) residing at Toorak in Melbourne and Potts Point in Sydney. He was educated at Sydney University, married Mary Frederica Dora Dempster of Williamstown VIC in 1889 and died 7 January 1901.]
So far it appears, three separate Wesley lineages coincide about Glen Innes in NSW (a) that of Charles and Andrew Stevens Wesley migrants from St Just-in-Penwith in Cornwall who settled at Emmaville (b) that of John Annesley Wesley son of Thomas related to Wesley Hall of Mount Morgan and Boggabri, that migrated from Kington in Herefordshire and (c) of William Wesley from Clavleton in Cambridgeshire who settled about Glen Innes, ancestor of Michael Peter Wesley of Taree NSW son of James Archibald ‘Jim’ Wesley of Laurieton NSW.
Michael and Jim supplied their family history linked with that of a cousin Walter ‘Wally’ Wesley of Guyra near Glen Innes, lately Gloucester NSW, some of whom we have traced in 1930 electoral rolls at Bald Blair and Tubbamurra, about Glen Innes and Guyra. They are clearly separate from descendants of John Wesley born 1822 at Limerick in Ireland, who migrated in 1851 to Sydney, married Ellen Ryan in 1857, settled a Talbragar River selection at Uarbry near Cassilis NSW about 1862 and died in 1894 at Gulgong.
John Wesley and Ellen Ryan had a son William Thomas Wesley (1862-1956) born at Lawson’s Creek, Mudgee, of whom their son Tom (1898-1956) has a large family including our correspondent Bernard ‘Barney’ Wesley at Coolah NSW, Andrew (born 1905) and Vincent (born 1910). Thomas Wesley born 1812 at Limerick (a 1st cousin to John) married at Limerick in 1832 Bridget Hall, also settled the Talbragar River selection at Uarbry, but died in 1879 at Coonabarabran NSW. Thomas’ great-grandson Stan Wesley is our correspondent at Turramurra in Sydney NSW, with family information on his cousins domiciled in the 1960s about Orange and Candelo NSW.
4. Mr Thorp’s letter of 9 August 1963 to Dr Wesley, in which Thorp refers to his contact in Michigan USA who understood they descend of Matthew Wesley, effectively Matthew Westley (1661-1737) apothecary of London, antecedent to (Dr Wesley’s 3rd great-grandfather) Joseph Westley (son of Richard) born 1714 Birmingham married Martha Richards in 1751 in St Martin’s Church at Birmingham. We at this point consider needs for genealogical research over Richard’s link to Matthew. Joseph’s descent from Richard and hence Matthew is discussed separately - Dr Wesley’s grand-uncle John Wesley from Birmingham was from 1856 until death 1901 a Methodist preacher at Detroit and Galien in Michigan.
5. Mr Thorp’s letter of 26 November 1963 to Dr Wesley, mentioning his skeleton plan of the Somerset and Irish branches in the Wesley family tree, also his find of the marriage certificate for Dr Wesley’s grand-uncle John Wesley, Methodist preacher, to Susanna Crowley at Birmingham; Dr Wesley’s father is Rev Charles Wesley (1859-1923) born at Rowley Regis in Birmingham, who migrated in 1883 to Queensland whereupon he was ordained in the Primitive Methodist Ministry, married Mary Cormack in 1889 and died at Cowra NSW after 44 years of ministry throughout Queensland and NSW.
6. Letter of 5 December 1963 to Dr Wesley from Mr Thorp mentioning Charles Kenneth Wesley whose father, a relative of aforesaid Rev John Wesley, who once lived at Adrian in Michigan (west of Detroit) but retired to Florida USA. We have on file descendants of Charles Kenneth Wesley.
7. Further letter of 4 January 1964 to Dr Wesley from Mr Thorp regarding his relative Samuel Annesley Wesley born 1837 said to have migrated to Australia. However, we cannot find traces of Samuel.
8. Mr Thorp’s letter of 17 February 1964 to Dr Wesley, clarifying that Charles Kenneth Wesley’s grandfather Joseph followed (his brother) Rev John Wesley’s journey abroad in 1856 and soon after met with him in Adrian, Michigan.
9. Mr Thorp’s letter of 26 March 1964 confirming marital details from Charles Kenneth Wesley on his father Joseph, whereby he is 2nd cousin to Peter’s father Dr C H Wesley. Thorp speculated upon the Samuel Wesley of Epworth’s ancestral link to Dr Wesley.
10. Letter from Mr Thorp to Dr Wesley on 6 April 1964 briefly mentioning Dr Wesley’s cousin Miss Gwen B Wesley of Ontario in Canada had replied to Thorp’s letter. Gwen evidently descends from John or Joseph Wesley of Michigan.
Much recent information supplementing Mr Thorp’s investigation of the ‘Epworth’ line of Wesleys is readily available on the Internet, whereas we wish to here focus on lineage of New South Wales families Wesley, earlier Westley. We almost invariably find the genealogy of Wesley was collectively Westley until the 19th century, while some remain Westley, born of the 15th century.
Specifically, ancestors at Birmingham of my colleague Charles Peter (‘Peter’) Wesley changed their surname from Westley in about 1815. My ancestry Westley, from about Buckingham and Northampton, which became Wesley from about 1850, seems to connect to that of the Westleys in South Australia.
However, the ‘Epworth’ Wesleys, children of Samuel Westley (birth 1662 Whitchurch in Dorset, death 1735 Epworth, Axholme in Humberside) born from 1690 to 1709 are first to appear baptised Wesley, whereas Samuel’s 3rd great-grandson Timothy Bartholomew Westley (birth 1811 Seaton and Beer in Devon death 1869 Ramsgate in Kent, fisherman) retained the familiar‘t’ inherited in the 15th century, though there are exceptions found in the Wellesley line, as follow. Timothy named his firstborn Walter Alexander Wesley in 1835.
The surname Westley was first used by Sir Arthur Westley 4th baron Norragh who was born 1416-1426 at (Wells-way, Welswe) Wesley Manor in Somerset, son of Gerald de Wellesley 3rd baron Norragh and Margaret Ogilvy daughter of Sir Thomas Ogilvy. Sir Arthur has a brother Walter de Wellesley, while Sir Arthur and Margaret have sons John the Rector at Langton in Dorset, Richard (married Kate Wellesley of Dangan Castle in County Meath, Ireland) and Humphrey Westley, who married a daughter of Hubert Wesley of Westley Hall UK - bearing no relation to James Wesley Hall of Mount Morgan in Queensland, whose brother Thomas Skarratt Hall acquired Weeting Hall at Weeting in Norfolk, after he made a fortune from their Australian gold mines!
Guy Wesley
30 September 2008
Faxed to Charles Peter Wesley